Do you believe Hayes believes what he said?

MONDAY, JULY 23, 2012

Denying a fearful symmetry: We’ll be reviewing Chris Hayes’ new book all week. For that reason, we greedily read his interview with TPM’s David Taintor.

We were struck in a minor way by something Hayes said about his book. That said, we were gobsmacked by this Q-and-A:
TAINTOR (7/21/12): Do you feel MSNBC is moving closer to mirroring Fox News on the opposite side of an ideological scale?

HAYES: It’s very important that we’re clear about what it is that we find objectionable about Fox, or objectionable about the model. The first thing that I think is important is transparency. If you found out that a mainstream news anchor at a major network was secretly emailing with a political operative, scheming on how to best present their case, you would be furious. The reason is there’s fundamentally a fraud being done, there’s a betrayal. Someone’s saying, “I’m a neutral, good-faith arbiter of these things, when I’m not. I actually have skin in the game.” That’s the greatest betrayal. That’s the most objectionable thing about Fox, is its claims to neutrality. The whole “fair and balanced” thing. Because that is fundamentally a misleading way of advertising themselves. Fox is a conservative network. It’s more than that. It’s a partisan, Republican network. And I think a multiplicity of voices is great. So let there be a conservative network or a Republican identified network.

The other thing we have to realize is that there is an impossibility of any symmetry between Fox and MSNBC. And the reason is because of the two men who run the networks. Roger Ailes is a lifetime, hard-right, conservative ideologue and Republican partisan. He worked in politics. He helped get Nixon elected. This is his vision. If he wasn’t doing this, he probably would be doing something else that would be furthering those goals.

Our network is run by someone who worked in TV. And he wants to make a TV network that performs well, that gets viewers, that attracts advertisers, that lives up to certain standards. There’s such a big difference in that.
Is MSNBC moving closer to mirroring Fox? We’d say the obvious answer is yes.

That doesn’t mean that MSNBC is “as bad as” Fox. It doesn’t mean it’s “just like” Fox. That said, even Fox has never pulled a scam any more egregious than the scam MS ran, for more than a month, with respect to the killing of Trayvon Martin. In our view, that was the horrible formal debut of a negative long-standing trend at The One True Liberal Channel.

In our view, a fearful symmetry took its debut as The One True Channel churned reams of disinformation. (Everyone agreed not to notice.)

Is MSNBC moving closer to “mirroring” Fox? To Hayes, the answer seems to be no. But good God! Look what he said:

To Hayes, there is “an impossibility of any symmetry between Fox and MSNBC.” Like you, we aren’t quite sure what that means. (Reason: We’re speakers of English.) But he seems to be denying any possibility that MSNBC could be anything like Fox.

Certainly, you can parse Hayes’ words to make them say something different; jargonized statements are like that. But in our view, you’re looking at some form of deep True Belief—if you believe Hayes really believes the remarkable thing he said.

Ailes is a former political operative; MSNBC’s unnamed head is not. This eliminates any possibility of symmetry—if you’re a 3-year-old child.

Do you believe Hayes believes whatever he said? If so, would that be a good thing?

Optional essay question: Compare and contrast these two statements:
The Fox News Channel is fair and balanced.
There is an impossibility of any symmetry between Fox and MSNBC.
Please answer with very long words in unfamiliar combinations.

36 comments:

  1. The esteemed Mr. Hayes has a wife and baby and probably doesn't want to bicycle from Brooklyn to mid-town Manhattan for the rest of his life. He probably would like to move into Katrina's neighborhood, but I doubt one can do that on a Nation salary. (Calvin Trillin has to settle for the Village.) Don't expect him to 30 rock the boat too much.

    Somebody needs to write an Orwellian satire on the convergence (with MSNBC doing all the converging) between the two eternally warring networks.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "That said, even Fox has never pulled a scam any more egregious than the scam MS ran, for more than a month, with respect to the killing of Trayvon Martin."

    That's a very bold assertion. Never?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bob is merely throwing out Trayvon Martin's name again hoping to get some traffic -- any traffic -- through search engines.

      It's kind of sad to watch, since Somberby was one of the pioneers of political blogging. But the industry has changed and Somerby is still sitting at home, blogging by himself in his underwear whatever thought, coherent or otherwise, pops into his head.

      Delete
  3. Hayes wrote:

    If you found out that a mainstream news anchor at a major network was secretly emailing with a political operative, scheming on how to best present their case, you would be furious. The reason is there’s fundamentally a fraud being done, there’s a betrayal. Someone’s saying, “I’m a neutral, good-faith arbiter of these things, when I’m not. I actually have skin in the game.” That’s the greatest betrayal. That’s the most objectionable thing about Fox, is its claims to neutrality.

    As I read this, I assumed Hayes was about to identify a Fox News anchor who was behaving this way, but he didn't do so.

    OTOH a group of liberal media folks did do this, via JournoList. Furthermore, JournoList members included people working for the supposedly unbiased mainstream media, such as Joe Klein at Time magazine and Ezra Klein at the Washington Post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah yes. Journolist. The absolute proof that all dialogue in the United States was, is, and always will be controlled by Ezra Klein.

      Delete
  4. I'm a little surprised to hear Mr. Somerby sounding so anti-intellectual, but I guess even the best fall by the wayside sometimes. Since he studied philosophy I would imagine he'd grasp the metaphor implicit in Hayes's statement about "symmetry," but if not, it's this:

    He doesn't think MSNBC is a perfect mirror of Fox, because of the difference between who founded and has led both networks.

    Is that easier to understand? Yes, MSNBC's performance on the Trayvon Martin murder was egregious. Yes, its hosts often churn nonsense rather than dealing with the pressing issues at hand for the 99%. Yes, like Fox's on-air personalities, they're very rich. But I'm not so sure Fox has not exceeded, multiple times before, the dreadful month-long performance of MSNBC. Really. Remember the "Swift Boat" controversy? Or Fox's participation in spewing the lies about Whitewater? Or in trying to drum President William Jefferson Clinton out of office? Or Glenn Beck? Or...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What I hear Hayes saying is this:

      MSNBC is run by TV executives looking for a niche audience in a fragmented industry world.

      Fox was founded by a billionaire specifically to advance right-wing ideology to the point that he chose a right-wing ideologue to run it.

      In other words, Fox will be Fox. Who knows what MSNBC will be should the TV execs in charge decide to go another route in search of an audience.

      Delete
    2. Yeah, I agree with most of what Bob says in criticism of MSNBC and I agree they did a horrible job on the Trayvon Martin case, but in the history of media atrocities over the past ten years is that really as bad as anything Bob can remember? What about the period leading to the invasion of Iraq? It's my understanding that MSNBC fired Donahue for being too antiwar--is that true?
      Much of the MSM, nevermind Fox, functioned as the propaganda arm for Dick Cheney.

      Bob is losing all sense of perspective and I say that as someone who mostly agree with his dislike of the MSNBC shows (except for Chris Hayes, who does a good job, but isn't perfect.)

      Donald

      Delete
  5. I tend to think MSNBC, in it's great whiplash inducing shift to the left,had merely given up trying to snap off a piece of Fox's audience and decided to go for a smaller but perhaps juicer (college educated, younger) demographic. If you see the ads on Fox, a lot of them are for cheap gadgets trying to squeeze a few bucks out of bored old folks. It's always seemed possible to me that Fox in general is more sincere than MSNBC. Sure, they lie, but they are means to an end kinds of people, like all "nice" right wingers. On the two statements: The first is bullshit. The second is modestly artful bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One more difference, as Hayes points out.

      There is nothing wrong with being a right-wing, Republican network or a left-wing Democratic network as long as you admit that is what you are. That's all part of the "diversity of voices" thing that we are supposed to welcome.

      However, don't tell me about "fair and balanced" and "we report, you decide."

      Delete
  6. Is MSNBC moving closer to mirroring Fox? We’d say the obvious answer is yes.

    That doesn’t mean that MSNBC is “as bad as” Fox. It doesn’t mean it’s “just like” Fox.

    So what does mirroring mean, if it doesn't mean "just like"? Man, if you held yourself to your standards...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You seem to be having trouble with the "moving closer to" part.

      Delete
  7. Is there any evidence of coordination of news reports with desired message of the Obama campaign or the Democratic Party, any daily pro-Democratic talking points issued by the news director? If not, end of story. Hayes' statement stands. The fact that some commentators may have gone off the rails on a story -- particularly black commentators who not without historical may have taken the killing of an unarmed black teenager personally -- does not change that.

    ReplyDelete
  8. MSNBC operates in a consumer market created by FOX. Liberals, independents, and others had zero need or desire for a for a slant on reporting before FOX created that market, and that is the point.

    And Chris is right to suggest that MSNBC has gone after that market because it came into existence, not to advance an agenda. The fact that some of its "stars" go too far or get obnoxious is another matter.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Also well said, the posters answer Bob well on this one.

      Delete
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